Ryan Buck
Hello good people and welcome to the pursuit of podcast or it’s truly not us, it’s you. I’m Ryan Bach, Artist Development New Media with me as the boss. Mark Wilson, President New Leonard Media. How are you, sir?

00;00;36;27 – 00;00;40;18
Mark Wilson
Hi, Ryan. I’m doing great. I got a new hat today as a gift. Yeah, that’s.

00;00;40;25 – 00;00;53;20
Ryan Buck
That is way too much about us, truly. But more importantly, our guest today is Dana Black, podcaster, actor, producer, Ted speaking, coach, lover of Croissants.

00;00;53;20 – 00;00;55;15
Dana Black
It’s true. That was the bit. Come on.

00;00;55;19 – 00;00;57;14
Ryan Buck
I wasn’t. I told you.

00;00;57;17 – 00;00;58;12
Dana Black
I was like, my.

00;00;58;12 – 00;01;00;06
Ryan Buck
Rotations may have been way higher.

00;01;00;06 – 00;01;02;01
Dana Black
Six more minutes of that is cute.

00;01;02;02 – 00;01;02;13

Yeah.

00;01;02;20 – 00;01;05;12
Mark Wilson
Oh, you know, this ain’t even the one I get for free, actually.

00;01;05;12 – 00;01;09;14
Ryan Buck
Yeah, it was fun. It was a good morning. Thank you so much for being here.

00;01;09;14 – 00;01;10;00
Dana Black
Thanks for having.

00;01;10;00 – 00;01;19;08
Ryan Buck
Me. And this is one of those where you meet somebody and you know, this could last forever. This could be a podcast that goes on in perpetuity because you are endlessly fascinating and this is what you do.

00;01;19;12 – 00;01;21;14
Dana Black
Or just my dad listens, you know what I mean?

00;01;21;14 – 00;01;42;10
Ryan Buck
Oh, yeah, Yeah. That’s that’s good. Inspiration. Motivation. Well, I’ll start with the question I started asking recently, and it may sound kind of corny to do that, but let’s say you’re at a gathering of some sort. It’s maybe professional or it’s a party. We’re doing that now. We’re back into that swing and somebody asks you, What do you do?

00;01;42;12 – 00;01;46;19
Ryan Buck
What’s your response? Oh, really?

00;01;46;21 – 00;01;48;05

Oh my God.

00;01;48;07 – 00;01;48;28
Dana Black
What do I do?

00;01;48;28 – 00;01;49;25
Ryan Buck
That’s fascinating.

00;01;49;27 – 00;02;01;23
Dana Black
I think as an actor or as an artist, I mean, we’re constantly questioning what we do. I feel like and especially now, like I wear many hats. So I’m like, What is the thing.

00;02;01;26 – 00;02;07;12
Ryan Buck
That is the better question? What makes you happy? Should we replace? What do you do in a party with what makes you happy?

00;02;07;13 – 00;02;12;26
Dana Black
Gin and tonics, right? If I’m having a gin and tonic at the party, then I probably easier to say what it is that I did.

00;02;12;26 – 00;02;15;29
Ryan Buck
A brick tam that you’re looking at whatever you’re seeing and saying you love it.

00;02;16;00 – 00;02;17;06
Dana Black
What I do, What?

00;02;17;06 – 00;02;17;27
Ryan Buck
I mean.

00;02;17;29 – 00;02;43;19
Dana Black
I. I am a podcaster. That is something I do. I started a podcast called I Swear on My Mother’s Grave. And through that podcast I’ve built retreats. So I say, right now I’m a podcaster who’s trying to grow a business around complicated maternal loss through bold, funny, vulnerable conversations about the loss of our complicated moms. Now, if I took some lines away from you already, Ryan No, I’m just telling you that’s what I do, right?

00;02;43;22 – 00;03;00;14
Dana Black
And then other days, I do sell tapes for TV. I do auditions for radio spots, I do emotional intelligence work for corporations. I do work on my house that I just bought in Traverse City. I do other people’s podcast. Sometimes I lay down just straight up.

00;03;00;14 – 00;03;01;22
Ryan Buck
Don’t know. Typically.

00;03;01;22 – 00;03;06;09
Dana Black
The point is what do I do is right. I try to be the wife. I try to be a good friend.

00;03;06;16 – 00;03;20;13
Ryan Buck
I love this because what do you at this advice? I love that. And now my follow up question is normally now there’s a semicircle of people around you because it’s enough to start now. I’m going to bet there’s a huge circle of people around.

00;03;20;13 – 00;03;22;03
Dana Black
At the party or at the party. Yes.

00;03;22;05 – 00;03;27;01
Ryan Buck
That was your answer. Now, what kind of questions you normally get and are they good?

00;03;27;04 – 00;03;31;28
Dana Black
That’s a great question. I love that. I like seeing the people around me where it’s a fancy party and you’re dressed. I mean.

00;03;31;29 – 00;03;32;28
Ryan Buck
You just said like, what do you.

00;03;32;28 – 00;03;33;16
Dana Black
Do? Maybe a gala.

00;03;33;17 – 00;03;38;04
Ryan Buck
Was enough and a bunch of people were like, I’m going to get in on this. And so after that, almost.

00;03;38;04 – 00;03;56;26
Dana Black
Everybody will say something about their mom or relation to loss. If I bring up the podcast first, or especially if I bring up the retreat, people want to know more about that and they want to know, are you going to do two retreats up in Traverse City? How long have you been doing them? I love to come on your show.

00;03;56;27 – 00;04;14;02
Dana Black
These are also comments I get right, but I have a dead dad. You know, they’re being sassy, but they’re trying to say like, sure, I haven’t lost my mom, but I’ve lost this person in my life or I just want to come on your show and talk to you about legacy and children and storytelling in life. But I’m lucky my mom is still here.

00;04;14;05 – 00;04;25;29
Dana Black
So that’s what they really talk to me about. And then when it’s TV and film, people are like, What can I see you on? And all the bullshit of like, what? Have you ever been in Broadway? Right? Because we only quantify success through.

00;04;25;29 – 00;04;26;24
Mark Wilson
Yeah.

00;04;26;27 – 00;04;27;18
Dana Black
The different strategies.

00;04;27;18 – 00;04;29;03
Mark Wilson
It’s funny that you say that, but just like.

00;04;29;03 – 00;04;30;29
Dana Black
You, like how many famous musicians have come into the.

00;04;30;29 – 00;04;47;24
Mark Wilson
Studio, That’s what they want to know. All right. Or actors. So if I say that, like, Oh, somebody came in to do ADR for a WB show. Yeah, that will make my father in law go, Wow. It sounds like you do. Of course. Well, that was a couple of days. Yes. Like, but any of my larger long term contracts like people are like who they do.

00;04;47;26 – 00;04;48;20
Mark Wilson
Y yeah.

00;04;48;27 – 00;05;00;28
Dana Black
I think now that I moved up here, I used to live in Chicago, which we’ll talk about, but like now I live in Travis. And so if I said that at a party here or at Farm Club that I’m an actor, they’re like, What are you going to do up here? Is there a lot of work up here for you?

00;05;00;28 – 00;05;06;04
Dana Black
Is there stuff you can do? Yeah, they’re more like, Oh, you left Chicago to come here.

00;05;06;05 – 00;05;06;27
Ryan Buck
Concerned that they’re.

00;05;06;27 – 00;05;07;13
Dana Black
Worried about.

00;05;07;13 – 00;05;08;09
Ryan Buck
Tragic career.

00;05;08;12 – 00;05;15;02
Dana Black
Or worried about me? No, they’re just like, Yeah. Or are you going to work at the Old Town Playhouse? Or they want to give you an option. Oh, yeah. It’s very sad. They want.

00;05;15;02 – 00;05;17;25
Mark Wilson
To support. Oh, so teach out at the Arts Academy.

00;05;17;26 – 00;05;20;19
Dana Black
Right. Which one. Interlochen or. Yeah.

00;05;20;26 – 00;05;22;06
Mark Wilson
The one time that there’s an assumption.

00;05;22;10 – 00;05;25;16
Dana Black
Yeah. Right. They assume that’s what you’re going to do. So I think that’s what people would say.

00;05;25;16 – 00;05;44;10
Ryan Buck
Let’s say that they hone in on podcasting because you know what you said, and that led to a bunch of different things. The word retreat came up, the word maternal came up in the way you articulated it is really great. But I’m just going to I’m going to start by focusing on the fact that you have a really, really tremendous podcast called I Swear on My Mother’s Grave.

00;05;44;13 – 00;05;45;29
Ryan Buck
Thank you. And the.

00;05;45;29 – 00;05;46;28
Dana Black
Checks in the mail room.

00;05;47;00 – 00;05;54;20
Ryan Buck
Can Well, you know what And I know there’s decorum about like how much we should praise one another, but I believe in sincere praise.

00;05;54;20 – 00;06;04;10
Dana Black
So I’ve listened to Smartless. You can guess me up. All right. You know what I mean? Those guys are like, everyone’s just like, Right, love? And I’m like, We get it, we get it. Other.

00;06;04;12 – 00;06;12;16
Ryan Buck
I love it. And it’s fantastic. And I want to ask you right off the bat, how is it so good right out the gate? Mm.

00;06;12;18 – 00;06;14;28
Dana Black
Good. You’re good, Ryan.

00;06;14;29 – 00;06;26;22
Ryan Buck
Because it was right out the gate. It wasn’t a lot of podcasts, if I may elaborate. Evolve or they find their voice. Your podcast was stellar from episode one.

00;06;26;25 – 00;06;43;28
Dana Black
I mean, I disagree. There was parts of it that I still I look back and I go, That could have been better. We all do. As artists. I see myself on TV, whatever. We’re hard on ourselves. So there are moments where I was like, That isn’t great, but the truth and I’ll say what somebody said to me when that show came out and people were like, Your show sounds so professional.

00;06;44;01 – 00;07;08;23
Dana Black
It’s so good. Why does it sound like an NPR show or You’re incredible. I told my editor that, which was so nice to hear this during the pandemic. Like this podcast came out during the depths of the pandemic, and I told my editor that, who’s a professional audio engineer, runs a company for film and audio. I’m a SAG-AFTRA Union performer of 20 years of experience of, you know, I have empathy, I love storytelling.

00;07;08;23 – 00;07;18;03
Dana Black
I have incredible artists as my guests and people. I was like, What do you mean? It sounds homegrown? We’re pros. Like, it almost was like, we should be doing this.

00;07;18;03 – 00;07;20;06
Mark Wilson
Work, right? Like, what did you spell?

00;07;20;09 – 00;07;21;10
Ryan Buck
It was your pressure.

00;07;21;10 – 00;07;21;20
Dana Black
Me?

00;07;21;20 – 00;07;26;02
Ryan Buck
Right. Like you, because of all the things you said, it had to be that good.

00;07;26;04 – 00;07;45;26
Dana Black
It was like, Come on, we got to make this sound good, because I also believe audio will kill. That audio, as you both know, will turn anyone off. And again, I should give myself credit. I mean, again, like, I don’t think everybody can listen and be empathetic. So I do want to say like that is a superpower of mine to be able to hold space for other people.

00;07;45;26 – 00;08;02;08
Dana Black
And I knew that. And levity is a power of mine through grief, humor, being vulnerable, being kind of sassy, saying shit that people aren’t saying like that is a superpower. But I couldn’t have done any of that without an editor. I have a graphic designer. I bought a $600. Mike. I’ll be real about it. You know what I think?

00;08;02;09 – 00;08;03;05
Dana Black
Because I went for it.

00;08;03;06 – 00;08;05;03
Ryan Buck
You think so many people?

00;08;05;08 – 00;08;06;19
Dana Black
Yeah, my therapist.

00;08;06;22 – 00;08;23;00
Ryan Buck
You think? And it’s customized, but it feels genuine and it’s very real. Yeah. Because I think a lot of podcasters really want that perception that it’s on their shoulders. And immediately I think everybody else knows for yourself. No, You know, I’ll just thank you for your work.

00;08;23;00 – 00;08;23;12
Dana Black
Yeah.

00;08;23;12 – 00;08;24;17
Ryan Buck
Now your service record.

00;08;24;18 – 00;08;25;07
Dana Black
Do any of it.

00;08;25;07 – 00;08;30;08
Mark Wilson
Without having to answer for you as you was asking is just like, well, it has a focus.

00;08;30;08 – 00;08;31;02
Dana Black
Right?

00;08;31;04 – 00;08;34;05
Mark Wilson
And it was well thought out before even starting.

00;08;34;05 – 00;08;49;10
Dana Black
I mean, it wasn’t totally thought out because I didn’t know what I was making and I wasn’t a huge fan of I wasn’t like a podcast fanatic. So to be honest, I, I did interviews and then I was like, Well, let’s see what this is. I just got on Zoom with people, made sure we had good audio, but I didn’t know what it was going to really be.

00;08;49;12 – 00;09;09;19
Dana Black
And I also gave myself the permission at any time to change the format. And I believe once I started growing, my listeners and people trusted me, which I think anybody knows in the podcasting world, if your audience trusts you, you can do anything you want. And so I still want to keep messing with the format if I keep continuing, but we’ll get into that I’m sure later, I guess is a lot of work and podcasting is a lot of money anyway.

00;09;09;23 – 00;09;10;03
Dana Black
Next.

00;09;10;09 – 00;09;11;08
Ryan Buck
Well.

00;09;11;10 – 00;09;13;02
Dana Black
Because it can.

00;09;13;02 – 00;09;33;03
Ryan Buck
Be you are an artist and we’ll put that in context because it’s so good. And I think you explained this, but did you are you somebody who envisions success? Like did you see Receiving your People’s Choice Podcast Award or the Obamas people reaching out to you and saying, We think you need Barack and you’re Seferis should be a guest on his show.

00;09;33;03 – 00;09;37;09
Ryan Buck
He’s lost his mom, right? Did you envision it like that or did you envision it day by day?

00;09;37;14 – 00;09;53;04
Dana Black
I envision it day by day. But the more I did it and the more work it is, the more money it costs, the ego creeps in, and the ego is like, Am I doing this as a passion project? Am I doing this as a hobby? What am I doing? What is the end result? You know, and that is still hard for me.

00;09;53;08 – 00;10;06;26
Dana Black
I want to create content that helps me, which it’s doing. It’s healing, healing other people. But I dream of like I want to get a podcast agent or pitch to other networks get acquired. But I also know that’s really hard.

00;10;06;26 – 00;10;14;10
Ryan Buck
And like you also did want merch before your first. I did. I know your husband, so maybe did one first.

00;10;14;13 – 00;10;27;13
Dana Black
My husband was like, maybe you should like record conversation before you get bags made. I was like, I need mugs, and then I want to pitch like Sarah Silverman and write and Anderson Cooper. And he was like, Maybe you should just do an episode.

00;10;27;14 – 00;10;35;23
Mark Wilson
But you know, every man since the beginning of time sure have since beginning of recording has done the same thing. They haven’t recorded anything yet, but like. Right.

00;10;35;26 – 00;10;37;25
Dana Black
And he’s like, Maybe you should slow down, right?

00;10;37;25 – 00;10;42;09
Ryan Buck
So what you needed was a recorder, a photo of your mom. And I’m like.

00;10;42;12 – 00;10;43;21
Dana Black
Yeah, that’s right.

00;10;43;23 – 00;10;45;29
Ryan Buck
Good job. That’s what you use. Yeah.

00;10;46;01 – 00;10;53;27
Dana Black
So talked into my voice memo app on my phone at a lake on the anniversary of my mom’s death about her. And that was how I started.

00;10;54;00 – 00;11;01;17
Ryan Buck
Now, was that an exercise, dude? Any training that you received as an actor or was that something you just did as a person? That’s what I yeah, I like doing.

00;11;01;19 – 00;11;18;22
Dana Black
I think for me, even before the pandemic, I was feeling like, I don’t know if I want to keep acting because I didn’t want to play just other people. I wanted to start like figuring out how to talk in my voice. So doing storytelling, which I do, just speaking in my voice, using my words. And I think that was an exercise of taking something.

00;11;18;24 – 00;11;40;06
Dana Black
My phone or a microphone and just speaking into it in my voice with my humor, with my style of how I grieve and then playing it back. Because you get to hear your own voice back to you and see where you might like get emotional or where you might feel there’s there’s room for breath in that beat. And so hearing that back for myself was like, Oh, I should talk to other people.

00;11;40;06 – 00;11;54;10
Dana Black
And then when they hear this back, they’re going to hear their voice reflected in a year from now, two years from now or a month from now about what they said. And in that moment in time, because I think a podcast is just especially mine is just a moment in time about where they are right now in that grief process.

00;11;54;10 – 00;12;07;14
Dana Black
It’s going to shift and change forever, but that conversation is just that moment in time for them in terms of their loss. But yeah, I loved it just using my mike, my phone as the mic. I didn’t have to have fancy equipment and I was by myself.

00;12;07;16 – 00;12;11;25
Ryan Buck
But that first one, were you performing or were you talking to that photo?

00;12;11;26 – 00;12;20;12
Dana Black
I was just talking to that photo, yeah, to my mom. And well, no, I think I was just I was talking about my mom in that photo. Yeah. What? She looks like I was describing it on the mic.

00;12;20;14 – 00;12;24;15
Ryan Buck
And that’s a photo that’s with you all and all recordings.

00;12;24;23 – 00;12;26;07
Dana Black
Yes. Okay. I keep it up.

00;12;26;14 – 00;12;31;27
Ryan Buck
And even if you record outside of your normal. Yeah, that’s something that I.

00;12;31;27 – 00;12;35;24
Dana Black
Didn’t bring it today. I brought it yesterday when I did an interview here. Right? Yeah.

00;12;35;26 – 00;12;52;12
Ryan Buck
Now, this pursuit became something because you had a story to tell. You had things that needed to get out and you were getting a little tired from acting. Can you kind of speak to that? Because, you know, maybe that’s not a relatable premise to some people. Yeah. Oh, this actor’s tired of acting. You know.

00;12;52;12 – 00;12;56;09
Dana Black
To so many actors, it’s really common. But you’re not an actor. That’s funny.

00;12;56;11 – 00;13;08;08
Ryan Buck
Well, like, I. Yeah, you know, how is that relatable? Yeah, but there’s so much more that goes into it and so much more that went into deciding to do this. Yeah. As something to put all this time in that may not have return. I mean I think.

00;13;08;10 – 00;13;27;15
Dana Black
Like I said yeah. Like I said about wanting to speak in my own voice, I think that was part of it. I kind of wanted to have control over the stories I told, have a control over my life, which actors don’t have any control over anything. So choosing when I perform, choosing when I work, choosing how I talk, choosing the style of how I do it, the medium I choose.

00;13;27;17 – 00;13;57;00
Dana Black
This podcast in this pandemic, which meant pandemic was not a gift. It was a horrible collection of grief for the whole planet. It was horrible. But that time, that quietness, that slowing down, getting next to my Spanx in my closet, talking to other people about their moms was this incredible gift. And as an artist for Dana, as a storyteller, my God, I’m like, really proud of like, this thing was just born of the pandemic, but and I might never, never have, like, done it if I hadn’t have been forced to slow down.

00;13;57;02 – 00;14;13;27
Dana Black
Right? And I think, yeah, actors just don’t have a lot of control over our lives. And I wanted to dictate what I was putting out into the world. And again, I’m not making money yet on the retreats or some income, some are not making money through the podcast yet. So it isn’t like, Oh, I traded off this career.

00;14;13;28 – 00;14;30;03
Dana Black
I wasn’t making a living, but I knew that I couldn’t just rely on acting for me. And I, I didn’t want to be resentful of the entire industry. I wanted to, like, still love it. I wanted to step away for a minute. I mean, I still act. I still go off for TV filming, but I stepped away from theater for sure.

00;14;30;03 – 00;14;32;02
Dana Black
It was hard, but whatever. I can go back.

00;14;32;02 – 00;14;51;13
Ryan Buck
And that’s that’s a part of it that I think, you know, is fascinating because I have a daughter who acts and acting is more than movies. Yeah, acting is theater. Acting is a grind. It is. It can be putting on a play in a basement that may or may not be up to code. Yeah. I mean, I think there’s some nobility in that.

00;14;51;13 – 00;15;05;09
Dana Black
Yeah, I love that. Jamie Lee Curtis I don’t think it was the Oscars. It might have been the SAG Awards or the Emmys or the Golden Globe. I don’t know. But she talked about how like I know a lot of you might be watching this and being like, sad that you don’t get to do this because it is a luxury even for her.

00;15;05;09 – 00;15;21;20
Dana Black
She’s saying getting to work, to be in a room, to collaborate, to be on set. It’s rare when it happens and I know so many of you, she said out there in the audience, don’t aren’t getting to do this right now, you know. And it is it’s like when we get to work, it’s such a joy. What a gift.

00;15;21;25 – 00;15;22;22
Ryan Buck
But that’s something.

00;15;22;23 – 00;15;23;13
Dana Black
Rare.

00;15;23;13 – 00;15;41;21
Ryan Buck
That reignites your love of or your belief in movies and your belief that there are people out there that are real. Yeah. No matter their circumstances, you could be jealous of their financial status, right? But they are demonstrating that they’re doing it for the real things and that they do care about others.

00;15;41;21 – 00;16;00;27
Dana Black
Yeah, and so many kids should know that. Are younger people coming up that there’s so many ways to act that are not on a stage or behind a camera. Like I said, I do this emotional intelligence work with companies where I teach people about II and how to have sympathy and vulnerability and how to connect. There’s ways to be you can work in hospitals doing standardized patient work.

00;16;01;00 – 00;16;08;21
Dana Black
You could work inside a theater like I worked inside a large theater, and I was an administrator. But like, I’m still around the theater all day long. And then I went in theater.

00;16;08;21 – 00;16;29;12
Ryan Buck
And that’s why this is such a beautiful it’s so beautiful in Chicago. And that’s the thing when you reminisce, there are some amazing things about it. Yeah, if you think back as early as you can kind of articulate these concepts and you can kind of frame this however you like, what was for you the dream, the plan and the reality?

00;16;29;14 – 00;16;32;14
Dana Black
How much time do we have and where is that gin and tonic?

00;16;32;16 – 00;16;33;29

Come on, go to.

00;16;33;29 – 00;16;35;11
Ryan Buck
Market. It’s 5:00.

00;16;35;11 – 00;16;38;29
Mark Wilson
Somewhere. Literally. Here it is. Water. You have to order.

00;16;38;29 – 00;16;40;23
Dana Black
What was the plan?

00;16;40;25 – 00;16;42;15
Ryan Buck
The dream, the plan and the reality.

00;16;42;19 – 00;16;47;01
Dana Black
The dream. The plan. And the reality is this hard for a lot of people is a tough one.

00;16;47;01 – 00;16;52;28
Ryan Buck
It’s interesting because it’s answered in different ways. Yeah, it’s rarely answered directly.

00;16;53;00 – 00;16;55;19
Dana Black
Yeah, that’s hard. The dream.

00;16;55;19 – 00;16;59;22
Ryan Buck
Maybe it’s got to go.

00;16;59;24 – 00;17;02;21
Dana Black
We live and we learn, you know? Yeah, maybe we do.

00;17;02;24 – 00;17;07;12
Ryan Buck
If a professional can tell me that this is a speed bump, we can actually move faster.

00;17;07;14 – 00;17;12;18
Dana Black
EDIT the point. Yeah. I mean, the dream. Yeah, the dream.

00;17;12;18 – 00;17;17;00
Ryan Buck
Is I don’t want to assume that you wanted to be Jamie Lee Curtis. I don’t want to assume so.

00;17;17;00 – 00;17;17;28
Dana Black
I mean, I thought I was going to do.

00;17;17;28 – 00;17;24;18
Ryan Buck
It from the false standpoint in the setting. You could just articulate quickly what. Yeah, what the dream, the plan in reality was.

00;17;24;21 – 00;17;31;01
Dana Black
I went to school. I mean, I did theater since the age of eight. I went to college for theater. I went to a liberal arts college in upstate New York.

00;17;31;01 – 00;17;32;22
Ryan Buck
Is that part of the plan or part of the dream?

00;17;32;24 – 00;17;35;11
Dana Black
Oh, that was part of the dream. I don’t know if.

00;17;35;11 – 00;17;36;06
Ryan Buck
It’s even it’s going.

00;17;36;09 – 00;17;51;11
Dana Black
Yeah. Mm hmm. I spoke at my high school graduation. I did speech team in high school. I went to state. I was joke like I might have peaked at 16. You know what I mean? I was really crushing it at 60. It’s like you weren’t coming. Caught spoke at high school graduation speech, team state. I was killing it, you know.

00;17;51;11 – 00;17;52;28
Dana Black
And then I was like, Well, I guess.

00;17;52;28 – 00;17;54;07
Ryan Buck
I’m by traditional standards.

00;17;54;07 – 00;17;58;25
Dana Black
Yeah, right, right. And I thought, gosh, I’ll never work again.

00;17;58;28 – 00;18;00;02
Ryan Buck
At 16 right.

00;18;00;07 – 00;18;19;23
Dana Black
Now. So when I hit my twenties, I guess the speed bump would be an alcoholic boyfriend. My parents divorce anyway, but like my twenties went a little different and I didn’t pursue TV and film. I went and had a bunch of different jobs. I did theater for every night. I did theater all the time. That’s great. But I didn’t pursue the money and pursue film and TV.

00;18;19;23 – 00;18;41;07
Dana Black
And so my late thirties and I think that is where the plan kind of went off the rails because personally, I loved theater, so I went for the dream. And then reality was like, Oh, I don’t know if you can sustain that physically. And then I really got into TV and film much later, which has been fabulous. But I wish I’d started a little sooner or got into vocal work, like cartoon work, right?

00;18;41;12 – 00;18;45;06
Dana Black
And that could have led me to L.A. and but that’s all what I could have showed us. So those.

00;18;45;06 – 00;18;47;01
Ryan Buck
Are paths that have shown success for.

00;18;47;01 – 00;18;55;28
Dana Black
Others, right? And you go, Well, could that have been my dream? But I think I thought I was going to go one way and it just it’s gone the way it’s gone. That’s really hard to answer.

00;18;55;28 – 00;18;59;20
Ryan Buck
Did you ever think you’d be helping a whole lot of people?

00;18;59;22 – 00;19;00;17
Dana Black
No, I know.

00;19;00;24 – 00;19;04;19
Ryan Buck
And even as an actor, you didn’t think I mean, you know, being.

00;19;04;19 – 00;19;22;09
Dana Black
I think hard of. Yes. Of course. You help an audience see the world. Yeah. You give joy. You help them see a different perspective. You help people put themselves in someone else’s shoes. You give them entertainment. I believe in that for sure. And yet there’s still for me, at times I felt there was a narcissism to that of like, I’m so great, I’m giving all this to the world.

00;19;22;09 – 00;19;35;13
Dana Black
But I’m really for me, I was like, Right, It’s still about me and my career and I want to get good reviews and I want to be loved, right? The artist needs to be loved. Hey, even through the podcast. So I still want to be loved. I still want to hear if listeners like it, I still want to hear from I still want to read reviews, right?

00;19;35;13 – 00;19;54;18
Dana Black
It is an addiction, but the podcast has let me be like, Oh, this is all on my terms, This is me, these are my guests. I’m healing. Put it out. I hope people love it. And then I started learning, Oh, I’m like literally changing people’s lives, their relationships with the parents. They’re interviewing their parents now. They’re calling their parents more.

00;19;54;18 – 00;20;03;05
Dana Black
They want to come to these retreats. It’s crazy. If you build it, they will come. So that was amazing. But I still go like, But shouldn’t I be a public speaker? Shouldn’t I be right? Like.

00;20;03;07 – 00;20;04;15
Ryan Buck
That’s where the money is, right?

00;20;04;15 – 00;20;19;17
Dana Black
Or I think, Oh, I wish I was a motivational speaker and I had a book out and I could book gigs where I stood on stages and talked about my journey, which I could do someday because yeah, yeah. And it’s all it’s still there for me. But I’ve been doing it this way and this medium has been amazing.

00;20;19;18 – 00;20;40;25
Ryan Buck
In the retreat, the listeners, you know, the word community comes up and yeah, I’m really fascinating about specifically as it relates to you is knowing a little bit being from Chicago, you know, there are artistic communities. New York has one and L.A. has one, and they all have their stereotypes, right? Yeah. And what drew you to the artistic community in Chicago and what did you take out of it?

00;20;40;27 – 00;21;02;14
Dana Black
Oh, my gosh. It’s the most it’s hands down the best community in the United States, I think. I mean, I’ve ever lived in L.A., but I just think Chicago is so collaborative. We’re so ensemble driven. Some of the best actors in the game. And there’s so much work coming in to Chicago, TV, film and pilots. There’s so much amazing comedy.

00;21;02;16 – 00;21;06;10
Dana Black
I just I grew up in the suburbs, so I knew I was going to come back to Chicago.

00;21;06;10 – 00;21;07;12
Ryan Buck
And what suburb I grew.

00;21;07;12 – 00;21;09;08
Dana Black
Up in. Wheaton You did? Yeah, we.

00;21;09;09 – 00;21;11;01
Ryan Buck
Excellent. Everybody shout out to we.

00;21;11;03 – 00;21;11;16
Dana Black
Now.

00;21;11;20 – 00;21;12;09
Ryan Buck
Everybody.

00;21;12;09 – 00;21;14;12
Dana Black
Christiane entity. What would Jesus do?

00;21;14;13 – 00;21;17;27
Ryan Buck
That’s right. Yeah so I you can drink wine in the old.

00;21;17;27 – 00;21;18;14
Dana Black
Mariano.

00;21;18;14 – 00;21;19;25
Ryan Buck
Arellano. That’s right. That’s cool.

00;21;19;25 – 00;21;22;03
Dana Black
Look out.

00;21;22;05 – 00;21;23;22
Ryan Buck
I think I may be out of school.

00;21;23;22 – 00;21;26;08
Dana Black
I got some shrimp, and you can have a glass of wine like.

00;21;26;08 – 00;21;28;01
Ryan Buck
You did Brad Pitt style. Justin Yeah.

00;21;28;04 – 00;21;45;00
Dana Black
Yeah. But yeah, I love Chicago, So I went to school outside of Chicago and then went to school in New York, and I pretty much knew I was coming back to Chicago for me just because it was accessible. And I did the school at Steppenwolf, which is a training program through Steppenwolf. So that felt like a great way to get it.

00;21;45;00 – 00;21;55;01
Ryan Buck
That’s pretty big. I don’t know how many people through the hospitality industry I met Lauren Hutton and I’ll never forget, she said. Steppenwolf is an amazing thing. People should not overlook it. So that’s that’s.

00;21;55;06 – 00;22;16;21
Dana Black
Where John Malkovich started. And yeah, Gary Sinise Very. Sinise Laurie Metcalf And many, many, many people. So yeah, I just I do I think it’s an incredible place. And again, the joke is that I’m saying I’m I’ve quit or I’m leaving or I’m out of here of theater. But again, that’s the narcissism of like we have actors have to announce our retirement and it’s like you don’t you can just go, you know, like you can just go.

00;22;16;22 – 00;22;18;16
Dana Black
And if you want to do a play and you just come back, we.

00;22;18;24 – 00;22;18;29
Ryan Buck
Like.

00;22;19;06 – 00;22;20;09
Dana Black
To tell people who.

00;22;20;09 – 00;22;21;11
Ryan Buck
You were to have a boss.

00;22;21;13 – 00;22;23;02
Dana Black
Right? Why do we do that?

00;22;23;09 – 00;22;24;00
Ryan Buck
But that’s okay.

00;22;24;06 – 00;22;32;21
Mark Wilson
Yeah, I don’t know. But I heard the way that stuck for me to quit smoking. Cigarets over 20 years. Yeah. Was the tell.

00;22;32;21 – 00;22;34;17
Dana Black
Nobody was to tell nobody.

00;22;34;17 – 00;22;36;03
Mark Wilson
Yeah, just. Just stop smoking.

00;22;36;03 – 00;22;38;05
Dana Black
Oh, yeah. Because everybody knows they’re going.

00;22;38;05 – 00;22;44;21
Mark Wilson
They said to try to get me smoking or they bust my balls when they see me. So like, just let it be.

00;22;44;21 – 00;22;53;12
Ryan Buck
I would say the opposite because I told everybody. Because as soon as I told them if I was smoking again, I’d be a liar. And I’d have to. So telling was the most.

00;22;53;15 – 00;22;54;12
Dana Black
Dangerous thing.

00;22;54;12 – 00;22;57;26
Ryan Buck
For me. I had to. But the joke Soon as I said it, I’m like, I got it right.

00;22;57;26 – 00;23;01;14
Dana Black
But actors are like, Oh God, you’re quitting again, you know? And I’m like, Well.

00;23;01;14 – 00;23;13;04
Ryan Buck
But that’s isn’t that dark and deep and conflicted and shouldn’t you be that way? Because you there’s this artistic community and you find strength in it, even though there’s struggle.

00;23;13;05 – 00;23;13;18
Dana Black
Right?

00;23;13;18 – 00;23;28;25
Ryan Buck
And you bring this to a city that this is relatively new move for you. Yeah. Did you consider it from an artistic perspective? Like, what am I going to do here? Yeah, what’s going to be what considerations and what did bring you here.

00;23;28;28 – 00;23;47;11
Dana Black
Mm. Do I say from club. No. I love it there. I really do shout out. I’ve been coming up here for five years with my husband and his mom would run a place in Suttons Bay. Let’s be honest, we came because she was buying, you know, she rented the Airbnb and we loved it. So we would come up and we fell in love with that side of the peninsula.

00;23;47;11 – 00;24;09;23
Dana Black
But we went out right? I mean, know. So I started coming up with her and my husband. And then slowly but surely we were like, I want to leave Chicago. I want a different style of life. I want a different quality of life. I want a small town. I want to be outdoors more. I like this town because it’s purple, it’s liberal, but it’s, you know, it’s not right, but it’s got artists and so many options for being in nature.

00;24;09;23 – 00;24;18;02
Dana Black
And I think a small town feel a different quality of life trumped. I hate using that word now so using the reference.

00;24;18;03 – 00;24;18;12
Mark Wilson
Map.

00;24;18;13 – 00;24;18;18
Ryan Buck
And.

00;24;18;19 – 00;24;19;25
Dana Black
Not to say that on the show.

00;24;19;27 – 00;24;21;11
Ryan Buck
You can’t say that word to.

00;24;21;13 – 00;24;24;12
Dana Black
Tell you that you took that word. Oh.

00;24;24;14 – 00;24;27;06
Ryan Buck
Now you took it before. Yeah, any of the huge ruckus.

00;24;27;06 – 00;24;46;18
Dana Black
But I felt like all those reasons, I knew that there wouldn’t be as much theater or TV film or all those things up here. But I didn’t really want to come up here and pursue that. I kind of wanted to take a break. It was almost like a I have to leave the world that I know to kind of separate myself from that community.

00;24;46;18 – 00;24;59;12
Dana Black
And I have a lot of artist friends and I have a lot of people, and I just I was already stepping away from theater. So I felt like, well, if I leave Chicago, I won’t feel as sad being around it, you know, because I’m making a choice to be like I’m distant now. So that’s a that’s a psychological.

00;24;59;12 – 00;25;09;27
Mark Wilson
You didn’t look up any of the, like, SAG talent that’s already here or any local directors. I mean, there’s Yeah. Feature films that have absolutely from here and.

00;25;09;29 – 00;25;32;04
Dana Black
Yeah I haven’t yet not because I just how do I say this I also believe everything’s remote now. So I wasn’t worried about I have an agent in Chicago. I was not worried that like if I want to do something still in Chicago or in Detroit, I can send a tape. We can all send tapes. So eventually I was like, Well, when I get settled here, which I literally just got here like six months ago, then I would love to talk to those people in those communities.

00;25;32;04 – 00;25;50;21
Dana Black
But of course I’m talking more theater when I guess I’m when I’m talking about this, I’m more referring to like my shows for me. And I love to do storytelling with like, her story. They sound amazing. And yeah, it’s an organization that are storytelling. I’d love to start my own potentially, and yeah, I mean, I found you. I was here, I was renting a place.

00;25;50;21 – 00;26;07;24
Dana Black
I found you in six days. I mean, I was been up here for six days, and I needed to interview Peter Segal from Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me. And I found you, and I Googled you, and I was like, I need a recording studio. And to be honest, there were a couple options. It wasn’t like you were the only one that were the best and you were my favorite, and I just trusted your tweet.

00;26;07;26 – 00;26;26;10
Dana Black
This is not a plug, but that was a good sign that I was like, Oh, I know I can find the artists when I need to find. And since then I’ve met parallel 45 people I’ve met. I mean, there’s lots. Yeah, yeah. And I have friends who works in Interlochen. It’s, it’s here. But I also knew I but I’m not sure I wanted to work inside an arts institution once because I worked inside one.

00;26;26;13 – 00;26;44;21
Dana Black
You know. So I, I’m constantly like, questioning every did that. I already did that. I already did that. So what’s next? Like, truthfully, I think I’d rather like I’m going to become a big brother, big sister in about a week. I’m going to get paired. I’d rather do that. I was like, pick up litter on the peninsula, like be part of the organization that goes out.

00;26;44;21 – 00;26;53;17
Dana Black
And right then do a play. So that’s the truth. That’s partly why I came. It was like, I want an expansion of myself. Wow, That was a long answer.

00;26;53;23 – 00;26;55;13
Mark Wilson
No, that was it. But wonderful.

00;26;55;19 – 00;26;57;22
Dana Black
I talked to a lot of people there. That was a big brother.

00;26;57;23 – 00;27;07;16
Mark Wilson
Like, Yeah, I almost brought in my own shameless plug just based on the amount of talent that is attracted know in the summertime and people that I’ve known and.

00;27;07;16 – 00;27;09;04
Dana Black
Then the film festival, of course.

00;27;09;04 – 00;27;19;21
Mark Wilson
There’s always something there that somebody hits us up and then, oh, they say I’m a voiceover actor and the client, I thought they were satisfied. Then I have to redo something. Right?

00;27;19;22 – 00;27;20;17
Dana Black
Right. I’m like.

00;27;20;20 – 00;27;21;25
Mark Wilson
Cool, Yeah, you know, we’re here.

00;27;22;01 – 00;27;37;11
Dana Black
Somebody had a company up here. I won’t say the company, but he was like, We might need you to do a commercial spot. I was like, Great. I mean, I am union, but, you know, we’ll see what happens. Like, if it can work, it can work if it can again. But I know there’s a lot of amazing people, so I just also just got here.

00;27;37;11 – 00;27;39;00
Dana Black
I need to take a beat. Take a beat.

00;27;39;03 – 00;27;40;08
Ryan Buck
Well, you have things.

00;27;40;15 – 00;27;41;07
Dana Black
I have things.

00;27;41;07 – 00;27;44;11
Ryan Buck
Yeah. There are things going on and.

00;27;44;13 – 00;27;46;12
Mark Wilson
It’s going to call you back.

00;27;46;15 – 00;28;04;03
Dana Black
I know that’s not so. That’s also exactly that’s what happens with artists. They say you want to work somewhere or you want to book something. You want to book a TV show, you book a trip. And every time you book a trip, you’ll get a call for the gig. Or like you left to leave Chicago and go live in L.A. and then you’ll book a play in Chicago.

00;28;04;05 – 00;28;18;28
Dana Black
That happens all the time, right? That’s just a joke. You like get on an airplane. You’re like, Oh, vacation. And it’s like you’re on hold for this TV show. And you’re like, What? I thought I was going on a trip. And now, right? So you’re right. Watch. I’ve left. I’m in Traverse City. I want to go on a hike.

00;28;19;05 – 00;28;22;00
Dana Black
And they’re like, We need you. And and Broadway.

00;28;22;03 – 00;28;22;13
Mark Wilson
You know.

00;28;22;13 – 00;28;23;09
Ryan Buck
Immediately.

00;28;23;09 – 00;28;24;17
Mark Wilson
Starts.

00;28;24;19 – 00;28;27;02
Ryan Buck
We’re going to have hair and makeup, meet you on the plane and.

00;28;27;02 – 00;28;27;11
Dana Black
Be so.

00;28;27;11 – 00;29;07;25
Ryan Buck
Lucky that you get to see Well, you deserve it. That’s the way it goes. The podcast has led to a real thing happening and this is fast, I think within the Realm of Podcasts podcast, obviously does something important right away. And again, like I say, people should listen to it. And when you listen to the first episode, it’s very clear what it’s all about, but it’s led to a retreat that is bringing people together in a place outside of here that takes logistics and it takes so much to do and a lot of time.

00;29;07;25 – 00;29;20;10
Ryan Buck
And yes, you said there could be some money made from it and that’s great. But what made you leap to that so quickly? Because you could have done little seminars a day, a weekend. These are significant.

00;29;20;13 – 00;29;20;25
Dana Black
Yeah.

00;29;21;01 – 00;29;21;21
Ryan Buck
Retreats.

00;29;21;21 – 00;29;56;25
Dana Black
Yeah. I mean, I really missed people. I really missed people. I’m a people person. Like, just sitting here with you two right now. Yeah, I’m. I get emotional again, like I’m in person. I’m in front of two people. I am not over Zoom and there’s something really, really gorgeous about that. And so I think for me, I was like, if I get vaccinated again and we get to go out in the world again, I want to be in front of people talking about our moms, talking about our grief, laughing, drinking, whatever, making a fire pit, doing altar building, doing story sharing.

00;29;56;27 – 00;30;11;16
Dana Black
And I want to do it at a property that I’ve loved for years. And it’s a property I want after my mom died. It’s property I’ve taken girlfriends. It’s like, right outside the city. So it’s easy to get to. It’s not so expensive, you know, It’s going to be pricey. Traverse City When I do a retreat, you know, I’m going to have a do retreat here.

00;30;11;16 – 00;30;23;16
Dana Black
And anybody out here who has property. But I’d love to do something in October or November. Right. Something in the off season. And this would be a destination location, Right? This is like tour. Yeah. Oh, my God. That is amazing. The tunnel, the trees, time off.

00;30;23;16 – 00;30;24;25
Ryan Buck
Season is getting shorter and.

00;30;24;25 – 00;30;26;10
Mark Wilson
Shorter. I know.

00;30;26;13 – 00;30;27;27
Ryan Buck
I know, John, but I know.

00;30;27;29 – 00;30;30;24
Dana Black
I know. But I feel like if I can bring it up here, What a joy.

00;30;30;24 – 00;30;33;08
Ryan Buck
So that X hospitality guy, I’ll tell you some inspiration.

00;30;33;08 – 00;30;43;06
Dana Black
Yes, I love that. Yeah, I love the planner. Next thing. Perfect. Great, great. Yeah. I mean, I think I just wanted to be in person, and I thought it was a way to make some money, but that wasn’t the goal.

00;30;43;06 – 00;30;46;04
Ryan Buck
Did anybody tell you this is a big leap too fast?

00;30;46;10 – 00;31;03;18
Dana Black
No, No one. Everyone. I did a brainstorming with some friends. There were a lot of options on the table of what’s the next step for me? And the only thing everybody agreed on was, I want to make Oracle cards. It’s a whole thing as merchandise. These like decks of cards, they’re really fun for Mother’s grave to sell that everyone was like, Do that.

00;31;03;18 – 00;31;21;14
Dana Black
That’s fun. That’s so you do not you love Oracle decks are part of the retreat but then they said And the next step, the retreat is ripe. Ripe means it’s ready. It’s easy and it’s joyful. It’s not easy again. I should also be clear, like I’m really honest and so I should be honest here that like, that’s privilege.

00;31;21;16 – 00;31;41;17
Dana Black
I was able, because of my mom’s death, to have some money come to me. I’m really real about that. Podcasting is expensive and not everybody can afford an editor. And even though everyone should have an editor, I 100% believe I don’t think you should start a podcast once you have one. But I inherited some money and that allowed me to rent that space, you know, because I had to rent it first and then hopefully money will come.

00;31;41;24 – 00;31;58;05
Dana Black
So I was taking a risk, of course, but I just knew if you build it, people will come and I watched it happen in real time. So that was really sweet. Now, is it sold out for my next one? No. And I got to hustle really hard on this next one to get. It’s old, it’s more expensive, it’s longer.

00;31;58;08 – 00;32;15;09
Dana Black
And, you know, every year we don’t know what’s going on with the economy. We’re watching people struggle and companies struggle and lay off. So I don’t know what’s going to happen. But I also believe if somebody wants something and needs something and is craving something in their life like this retreat experience, they’ll find the money. And we’re also doing a donation for this next.

00;32;15;09 – 00;32;17;14
Dana Black
We’ll get to that. But we’re doing a scholarship for someone.

00;32;17;14 – 00;32;21;06
Ryan Buck
That’s awesome anyway, But what does that retreat take from you and what does it give to you?

00;32;21;12 – 00;32;34;07
Dana Black
Takes from me a lot of logistical work. It’s website building, it’s newsletter writing. It takes the brain power, it takes it admin work, and it takes.

00;32;34;09 – 00;32;35;12
Ryan Buck
It to an artist. Do you love.

00;32;35;12 – 00;32;55;11
Dana Black
That? I love that. And you do. I do love, I do. You want a paradox? I know. I love responding to emails. I know, right? I know. I kind of love that stuff. But it takes courage. It takes like optimism. It takes putting myself front and center to, like, tell my story so that I hope other people will come along for the ride.

00;32;55;13 – 00;33;14;02
Dana Black
I was a participant in the last retreat. Like I used my mom’s ashes, like they were part of my. We did this activity with objects and I brought my mom to the table. Like I wasn’t just the hair club president. I was also a client. Like the joke of like, I produced this thing, I created it, but like, I was also part of some activities.

00;33;14;05 – 00;33;32;14
Dana Black
But will that continue every year? No, but it was the first one. So I was like part of this grieving experience. And then it gives me community, it gives me rest, it gives me a sense of purpose. The retreat does like all the things like I was saying about superpower, it does all the things that I think I was put on this earth to do, you know?

00;33;32;17 – 00;33;53;22
Dana Black
Yeah. To connect with people, make people feel good, unify people, share my story, help people laugh, bring people together. And that my team is amazing. And they’re also incredible the people that do this with me. But that just feels right is what I’m saying. Like it’s right. It’s easy. It’s joyful. Like an online seminar that’s not really joyful or creating a course that people would take.

00;33;53;22 – 00;33;56;24
Dana Black
You know, like those courses everyone makes. Like for me.

00;33;56;27 – 00;34;23;14
Ryan Buck
I can’t this is something that feels just a little bit too real to translate that way and not saying that every interaction has to end in tears or has to end in some kind of emotional transference, But how could it not? And so I want to ask you on the notion of what does it take from you because you give so much of yourself in this podcast and so much so that right out of the gate, if I may reference the first episode.

00;34;23;14 – 00;34;24;29
Dana Black
Yeah, you mean Rusty, are you?

00;34;25;01 – 00;34;28;14
Ryan Buck
Well, I’ll get to that. Oh, my goodness. Oh, I love her.

00;34;28;16 – 00;34;30;19
Dana Black
She’s amazing. Yeah. When you say first.

00;34;30;19 – 00;34;54;03
Ryan Buck
I mean the intro and you talk about getting the call and I just quote you, please let her be. That is a quote that stuck with me. And I am somebody who has not lost their mother. But that was the thing that made me think this is real. But how do you balance the giving and the taking of this grief?

00;34;54;03 – 00;35;09;08
Ryan Buck
Because you’re talking to people and there’s no way. I think you can’t be taking something you can’t be taking some of this on and you keep it light. So were you coached in this? Do you think about your mental health as a result?

00;35;09;08 – 00;35;11;18
Dana Black
Of course. Can I ask you a question before I answer that?

00;35;11;18 – 00;35;12;04
Ryan Buck
Sure.

00;35;12;06 – 00;35;26;13
Dana Black
Well, I’m not going to ask you about your relationship with your mom right now, but when you heard that line, did it shock you? Did it upset you in context of what I was talking about is one part. But like, did it make you think about your relationship with your mom? What did that moment do for you?

00;35;26;19 – 00;35;32;12
Ryan Buck
You know, I saw more about you because I was thinking about it in the context of this interview. Right.

00;35;32;18 – 00;35;33;08
Dana Black
Okay.

00;35;33;08 – 00;35;34;18
Ryan Buck
So I was really this.

00;35;34;19 – 00;35;36;07
Dana Black
Wasn’t even a Yeah, it was about me.

00;35;36;09 – 00;35;58;12
Ryan Buck
It was. And it it said something in I identified with it. I identified that relief way. Yeah. Because I heard it in your voice. Yeah. And this was just the first episode. Yeah. So reflecting on it later. Yeah, absolutely. It was a perfect thing to share because it was very, very sincere and made me want to listen to as many episodes as I did.

00;35;58;15 – 00;36;08;02
Dana Black
Well, thank you. I mean, that’s a scary I mean, that’s a scary thing to say. And it was a scary thing to put out, right? Kind of, because it’s like you don’t usually say that stuff.

00;36;08;05 – 00;36;09;06
Ryan Buck
Yeah, it was right.

00;36;09;07 – 00;36;10;04
Dana Black
Yeah, it was a choice.

00;36;10;04 – 00;36;12;23
Ryan Buck
And did anybody say, Yeah, well, too much.

00;36;13;00 – 00;36;29;25
Dana Black
My trailer was the I think when I dropped my I had like I don’t even remember I had like 300 shares on Facebook. Like I felt like it blew up. People were like, oh my God, we can’t like she’s saying like, Dana Black. Oh, my God, Hold that. Hold the table.

00;36;29;25 – 00;36;32;04
Ryan Buck
Grass. Where am I? Mother’s grave, everything.

00;36;32;04 – 00;36;50;09
Dana Black
It was just like, Let’s go. People were I mean, yes. And again, not everyone is sitting here to tell me how they felt. I’m sure some people were like, Oh, but most people know me. I mean, there’s a book right now, right, I think everybody knows about. I’m glad my mom died. But Jennette McCurdy is this big book that just came out and she’s a Nickelodeon star, but she had a very different relationship with her mom.

00;36;50;11 – 00;37;10;08
Dana Black
But again, there’s something terrifying about writing a book called I’m Glad My Mom Died, but there’s a really complicated reason why she feels that way. But she also loved her mom, right? This is really push, pull and some trauma that she went through. Massive trauma. Mine is about, as we know in the trailer about my mom being really sick, neuropathy, addiction, depression.

00;37;10;08 – 00;37;30;12
Dana Black
And I just literally was like, I can’t get to the hospital and have her be still sick or in a coma. Just take her. She needs to rest like my mom needed a rest, you know? And so when I did that trailer, I remember I did it a couple of times. And the truth is, I tell a lot of people this when I was starting, they were like they wanted to talk about like starting the show.

00;37;30;14 – 00;37;51;16
Dana Black
Friends of mine and. I would play different versions of that trailer to my husband and he was always like, You’re not saying the thing, you’re talking around the thing. Just say it. Tell us what you felt. Tell us the true meaning behind what it felt like to acknowledge that you wanted your mom to die. And I was like, Well, I might need to just say it.

00;37;51;17 – 00;37;57;24
Dana Black
He was like, The joke is that he’s always like, Give it another pass. Like any closers I do or intros. He’s like, One more time. And then you.

00;37;57;24 – 00;37;58;26
Ryan Buck
Share with him, Oh.

00;37;58;26 – 00;37;59;06
Dana Black
Yeah.

00;37;59;06 – 00;38;02;01
Ryan Buck
Is he your first go to or is he your last go?

00;38;02;03 – 00;38;17;11
Dana Black
He would say, Please Lord, let her go to someone else at this point. You know what I mean? I’m always going to him and he’s got incredible mind, incredible heart. He’s really smart. So he’s good at being like, You’re so close. But that isn’t like it’s too convoluted or when.

00;38;17;11 – 00;38;27;14
Ryan Buck
It gets tense. Do you ever have to throw your training in his face like, Excuse me. Excuse me. Who here went? No. So do you get the final say or do you. Do you acquiesce? No, I don’t like.

00;38;27;14 – 00;38;32;08
Dana Black
I just a sounding board. But it’s also clear there’s nobody else in the house, so I have to like I had to go to him a lot. That’s what I mean.

00;38;32;08 – 00;38;33;11
Ryan Buck
Well, thinking about.

00;38;33;13 – 00;38;34;15
Dana Black
My editor, of course, But.

00;38;34;15 – 00;38;44;18
Ryan Buck
Your guess. Yeah. What is your approach on getting gas and securing gas? And did you have an idea of how you wanted it to go and flow?

00;38;44;21 – 00;38;45;29
Dana Black
Yeah, I think I.

00;38;46;03 – 00;38;49;17
Ryan Buck
Because a lot of friends. You have a network. Yeah. People you know. Yeah.

00;38;49;17 – 00;39;05;05
Dana Black
I started a no, I started a spreadsheet of people that were my dream guests like Governor Pritzker. I still really want the governor of Illinois to come on my show. He used his mom and a lot of his campaign ads, the loss of his mom when he was really young. But it never happened. I went somebody and then I never got anywhere.

00;39;05;05 – 00;39;26;14
Dana Black
But he was a dream guest. And then I had some other similar famous people on my show and on my dream list. And then the rest was just people I knew and really good friends of mine and I, because my show is about estrangement and death. So I would try to make sure I had people who were I knew had complicated relations with their moms and then some who had lost their moms and have been like at least a couple of years out from their grief.

00;39;26;14 – 00;39;46;28
Dana Black
They aren’t as immediate. Like, it didn’t just happen. Right. I think for estrangement. It’s hard, though, because I would talk to people sometimes, and once you talk and they share their story and then you say, okay, it’s going live, we have an edited version. You ready? They’re nervous because parent is still living. And so it’s not always a go, right?

00;39;47;05 – 00;40;02;20
Dana Black
They can have regrets. Anybody can have regrets even if their parents have passed. But I know that that was the concern with one of my guests from season one, Zander, a trans man. You know, he was just like making sure that this was something he really wanted to put out into the world. And he did. But ultimately, in that episode is one of my favorites.

00;40;02;22 – 00;40;03;25
Dana Black
So, yeah.

00;40;03;27 – 00;40;04;20
Ryan Buck
Tremendous.

00;40;04;21 – 00;40;07;02
Dana Black
Oh, you’re the best. It is. I really. I should hire.

00;40;07;02 – 00;40;08;03
Ryan Buck
You. It’s so do.

00;40;08;05 – 00;40;08;26
Dana Black
My.

00;40;08;28 – 00;40;25;16
Ryan Buck
There’s there’s a delivery and a balance that’s really good in your lineup of gas is not only unique but just the tone of their voice. How you get different things out of them is really great, and you’re always wondering what’s going to come next, You know, what kind of curious. So on that note, were you looking for a marc Maron moment?

00;40;25;18 – 00;40;27;00
Ryan Buck
Never did you think like.

00;40;27;00 – 00;40;28;27
Dana Black
What is that Marc Maron moment? What that means.

00;40;29;01 – 00;40;32;17
Ryan Buck
Todd Glass came out as a sexual one, I think.

00;40;32;24 – 00;40;33;28
Dana Black
Oh, that.

00;40;34;00 – 00;40;38;19
Ryan Buck
WTF. Yeah. And so it was a moment that was really positive. But any kind of like.

00;40;38;19 – 00;40;39;15
Dana Black
Of course I want them.

00;40;39;15 – 00;40;40;24
Ryan Buck
To have a revelation.

00;40;40;27 – 00;40;42;02
Dana Black
I want I want to.

00;40;42;02 – 00;40;43;21
Ryan Buck
Be like, my mom’s really not right.

00;40;43;21 – 00;40;44;05
Dana Black
Right now.

00;40;44;10 – 00;40;45;00
Ryan Buck
I’m here.

00;40;45;02 – 00;40;47;11
Dana Black
She’s here, she’s alive. Here she comes out of the closet.

00;40;47;11 – 00;40;55;21
Ryan Buck
Were you looking for something really huge or was was just enough? The conversation was it just to share and to have this connection?

00;40;55;21 – 00;41;17;07
Dana Black
Yes. Anybody learning something for the first time on the mic? Either the host or the guest is interesting as all get out. That’s interesting. Saying something that is scary is interesting. Saying something that might be taboo is interesting, but I don’t really have an agenda per se. I have questions. Slowly but surely. I wouldn’t keep up any notes at all.

00;41;17;07 – 00;41;34;19
Dana Black
I would have like a framework and then I would kind of toss it. I just kind of let the conversation go where it needs to go. And I follow threads that are interesting. And especially with Zander, I didn’t know him, so that was a stranger. And that’s scary because I don’t know them, but I felt like I had to kind of hold this space.

00;41;34;24 – 00;41;51;03
Dana Black
I had to hold it really delicately in my hands because I didn’t want to upset or say the wrong thing or be overbearing. And yet I remember that call or that interview where I was like, I’m going to say it like, I’m going to tell this person that they’re generous and gracious and then ask them, Have they ever thought of this?

00;41;51;05 – 00;41;55;25
Dana Black
And because he’d never heard somebody say that back to him, yeah, I was like, I got to go for it. You know, I.

00;41;55;26 – 00;42;24;03
Ryan Buck
Think that’s the mentality. It’s like, yes, it is a little bit in the moment because I wonder that pressure that you feel of performance, you’re clearly having a conversation. It’s very real, but you’re tuned to the fact that you know, there’s timing that has to be done, but it comes across very conversational. Was that the idea? Because you don’t just touch on death, you touch on grief, you touch on so many different other related addiction.

00;42;24;06 – 00;42;25;07
Ryan Buck
The list is endless.

00;42;25;07 – 00;42;33;03
Dana Black
Children. People say it’s intimate. Your show is about what it’s like to be someone’s child, which I thought was so beautiful. I was like, Oh, cool. Yeah, okay, sure.

00;42;33;09 – 00;42;37;14
Ryan Buck
But you have to be ready for almost anything, especially with somebody you don’t know.

00;42;37;15 – 00;42;50;26
Dana Black
Yeah I think I worry about not having anything to say that I would just. You just stop in the middle of the conversation. Because if they aren’t a talker or if they aren’t a sharer or they have one word answers, which most of my guests aren’t because they’re incredibly.

00;42;50;26 – 00;42;51;14
Ryan Buck
Articulate.

00;42;51;17 – 00;43;11;06
Dana Black
Artists. Right. But the truth is, sometimes I would tell people, this is a conversation, this is a dialog, and that’s hard. Peter Segal doesn’t need to be in dialog with me, right? He isn’t used to that and he’s used to being the host. So when he’s on someone else’s show, it’s different. And I think he felt that like, are we in dialog or are you interviewing me?

00;43;11;06 – 00;43;34;18
Dana Black
And I was I’m interviewing him, but I still always want my guest to be able to say back to me because ask me something, right? And that’s what’s hard. And it’s hard to do that. I think for me, I, I just have to kind of follow it, follow where it goes and and if I lead with vulnerability and I share my story and I try to connect even with someone as famous as Peter, I’m like, I’m going to jump in and tell you my history of.

00;43;34;20 – 00;43;35;08
Ryan Buck
Right.

00;43;35;10 – 00;43;41;18
Dana Black
Addiction or. I’m going to tell you about my story while I’m opening the door for you to share yours.

00;43;41;20 – 00;43;58;22
Ryan Buck
What’s fascinating to me is, is that do you feel like or maybe you don’t feel like, but you have to be have a response to everything and maybe feels that, you know, like if somebody if you know, you’re talking about suicide, you can be ready for that. But if something else comes up, you have to lead the conversation.

00;43;58;22 – 00;44;04;29
Ryan Buck
So yeah, and you have to be maybe seen as an authority. Do you feel that pressure or are you saying, Hey, we’re just talking?

00;44;05;00 – 00;44;06;17
Dana Black
No, I’m not giving advice.

00;44;06;17 – 00;44;07;13
Ryan Buck
You know.

00;44;07;15 – 00;44;09;03
Dana Black
Clearly I’m never an authority.

00;44;09;03 – 00;44;20;15
Ryan Buck
So you’re just able because again, you’re opening yourself to so much knowing that you just have to on maybe those improv skills that you learned and to have to adapt.

00;44;20;15 – 00;44;41;16
Dana Black
To generosity and compassion and empathy and humor and letting them know we’re going to hold space and we’re going to laugh, we’re going to like, cry in this moment. And then in 20 seconds, you know, I’m making a joke about like, we’re going to get out of this and we’re going to come back and always clear about, hey, before an interview, I send them information and I say, So we are going to, if you’re willing.

00;44;41;16 – 00;45;00;19
Dana Black
You know, I’ve obviously asked you on the show to talk about your mom’s suicide, so just know I might bring up this. I might bring up that. I might read what you wrote about her on Instagram. Yeah. And these people are like Tina. Usually they say, of course, like, of course. That’s why I’m coming here. And if they don’t want to talk about their father or other related characters, we cut them later.

00;45;00;19 – 00;45;06;27
Dana Black
Or they say, I talked too much about my brother. He shouldn’t be in this, or how much should I say about my aunt.

00;45;06;29 – 00;45;09;00
Ryan Buck
You know, so like a little insider course.

00;45;09;00 – 00;45;24;22
Dana Black
And that’s later. But I always say, like, we’re just rolling. I’m not thinking about the final version. I’m not thinking about editing. I’m not thinking. I mean, I might be looking at the time like, how long we’re on the mic for, but I usually say, you say whatever you want, you can get up, you can go to the bathroom during this, you can take a beat, you can pass, you can go back and say a line again.

00;45;24;29 – 00;45;28;18
Dana Black
If you felt like you want to start over and you can say you’re you’re good at it.

00;45;28;24 – 00;45;53;18
Ryan Buck
You know, you make people feel comfortable. But in the more yeah, of the I Swear on my Mother’s Grave podcast among the fans amongst everybody who loves the show is the word Daisy special. Yeah. Because as it relates to preparation for a podcast and gantlets traversed, I feel like I went through a big one. Yeah. Listening to the Daisy episode.

00;45;53;18 – 00;46;03;20
Ryan Buck
And if I may, you interviewed a 16 year old girl. Yeah. Who lost her mother at the age of eight. Yeah, I did this knowing I have a 16 year old daughter and it was What.

00;46;03;20 – 00;46;04;26
Dana Black
Did that feel like?

00;46;05;01 – 00;46;32;12
Ryan Buck
I was really fully into the podcast by then. I’ll just be honest. Little insider baseball there. And it was hard. It was so hard mostly because, like Mark said earlier, the articulation in her voice. Yeah, fueled by grief and the story about the kids singing the Sun will come out tomorrow I maybe didn’t recover from. I may be still, I’m a little joking, but I broke a lot in listening to her say that.

00;46;32;14 – 00;46;48;09
Ryan Buck
Yeah. And I want to ask you, how did you make that interview happen? Because your poise, your handling of it, I may not have taken it. So why did you decide to do it and how did you prepare to talk to her?

00;46;48;11 – 00;47;08;06
Dana Black
And it’s a good question. I was referred to her through my friend Sarah of Hearts to Art, the grief camp that Sarah worked at for kids between the ages of seven and 14 who have lost a parent. And so my friend Sarah referred me to this camper who had also become a junior counselor. I think Daisy might be they them now, but I don’t know.

00;47;08;06 – 00;47;29;15
Dana Black
So they could have changed their pronouns. So just to be clear, I will say they. But at the time Daisy was a female identifying. I was actually really excited. I heard they were really articulate and smart, but quiet. And so Sarah said before the interview, I can’t legally tell you anything about their story because of like, I just met her through this grief camp.

00;47;29;15 – 00;47;47;13
Dana Black
It’s not my job, but I’ve asked if they want to do this, and they said yes. So I assume once you get on the call, you will understand that you might have something in common, right? Addiction. I just knew I have to lead with like, Yo, you’re kid, I’m an adult. I know I’m going to seem uncool to you.

00;47;47;13 – 00;48;07;11
Dana Black
You know, I just have to lead with who’s, you know, who I am. And also, my story is real different than yours. Our life stories, our families are how we were raised, our race, the class, like all that’s going to live there. So I don’t need to really talk about that. I just have to act like this person is my total peer.

00;48;07;18 – 00;48;31;04
Dana Black
And they are right. It’s called peer counseling. It’s like we’re both helping each other. And Daisy taught me things on that call about addiction that I had never thought about with my mom and how you’re supposed to move through the world as a child with so much loss. And truthfully, they said things that many adults say that I had already heard.

00;48;31;04 – 00;48;51;01
Dana Black
Like they were saying, it’s so young and it because they’d experienced it years before. I had. Right. I remember that day, the zoom was really spotty. So I thought we lost. Yeah, I thought we lost the whole interview because I couldn’t hear certain parts, so I would have to ask them to repeat it. But then we were recording locally, so it was fine.

00;48;51;01 – 00;48;56;26
Dana Black
But and then my editor did God’s work and I said, Let’s make it short so that it’s compressed. It’s a tiny.

00;48;56;29 – 00;48;57;23
Ryan Buck
Little shorter than.

00;48;57;25 – 00;49;14;06
Dana Black
35 minutes. And I just kind of let Daisy’s wisdom guide where I was going. I don’t have a lot of pre-planned things, and I wanted them to share their mom’s photo with me on the mic. And they did. And that was beautiful. So yeah, thanks.

00;49;14;06 – 00;49;36;19
Ryan Buck
Yeah, I’m very fascinated because the concept came up with my own daughter about sharing grief versus burdening people with it. She mentioned she doesn’t talk about certain things because she doesn’t want to burden her friends with. Yeah, although she takes everything on. So I’m seeing these traits. What are your thoughts on that burning? It’s a it can be a burden because I read the description of Daisy’s episode.

00;49;36;19 – 00;49;41;02
Ryan Buck
I knew full well what I was coming into, right? And I’m very glad that I listened to it. It was it was.

00;49;41;03 – 00;49;49;21
Dana Black
Weird and it’s helpful to hear, like the teachers were telling them, you have to make Mother’s Day cards even if you haven’t like. What? First of all, that’s the.

00;49;49;21 – 00;49;52;23
Ryan Buck
Anger that you’re in. I was angry for her.

00;49;52;24 – 00;49;53;05
Dana Black
Horrible.

00;49;53;05 – 00;49;56;11
Ryan Buck
Through you. You’re you’re like, what kind of calls?

00;49;56;15 – 00;50;17;19
Dana Black
Right. And the things people say to just me and I can process it at 43, How old am I? 42. I can process weird comments coming at me or people not being aware that I might have lost a parent. But this is a 16 year old or she lost her mom at eight, you know, and they were so self aware to still be able to articulate like no look alive.

00;50;17;22 – 00;50;32;08
Dana Black
Be more conscious of how you’re speaking to a child going through grief. And then I went and worked at that camp, which was amazing. I went worked at it the next summer, so I got to meet other campers and then see Daisy in person, which I’d never met. So yeah, I never met.

00;50;32;11 – 00;50;33;29
Ryan Buck
She’s still Harry Potter fan.

00;50;34;01 – 00;50;37;27
Dana Black
Who I don’t know, right? I don’t know their stages for looking up. Yeah.

00;50;38;00 – 00;50;43;21
Ryan Buck
Well you’ve done, you’ve done so much and you’ve concluded season two.

00;50;43;24 – 00;50;44;05
Dana Black
Yes.

00;50;44;05 – 00;50;46;10
Ryan Buck
What’s next? Can I ask that?

00;50;46;11 – 00;50;50;00
Dana Black
How far did you get into this podcast? Did you go all the way?

00;50;50;05 – 00;50;51;08
Ryan Buck
All the way?

00;50;51;08 – 00;50;52;10
Dana Black
Did you finish this?

00;50;52;10 – 00;50;53;26
Ryan Buck
I didn’t listen to.

00;50;53;29 – 00;50;54;02
Dana Black
Was.

00;50;54;02 – 00;50;57;27
Ryan Buck
Amazing. Last last. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve listened to a lot of She’s incredible.

00;50;57;27 – 00;50;59;18
Dana Black
Yeah, it’s incredible. That’s so cool.

00;50;59;19 – 00;51;07;22
Ryan Buck
It’s really good. Yeah. I said, you’re so sweet. And I wouldn’t you know, I know there’s decorum on a podcast. I’m supposed to say it’s good. It’s really, really good. Yeah.

00;51;07;24 – 00;51;08;23
Dana Black
So tell me why you should.

00;51;08;23 – 00;51;09;07
Ryan Buck
Listen to.

00;51;09;07 – 00;51;12;05
Dana Black
It. Yeah, Great. Maybe not your child yet.

00;51;12;08 – 00;51;15;08
Ryan Buck
There are some episodes I would absolutely share of my with my show.

00;51;15;08 – 00;51;19;06
Dana Black
Which ones I wouldn’t say would be 100%.

00;51;19;06 – 00;51;20;17
Ryan Buck
And it’s where I’d start.

00;51;20;19 – 00;51;38;16
Dana Black
Wow. So, yeah. Oh, man. What’s next? I don’t know. I have to decide if I’m coming back with a third season. It’s my answer. I don’t know. I feel like I should. And I need to, and I have to make sure I want to. Yeah. I also feel really guilty when I can’t talk to everybody. And right now I have a spreadsheet of like 80 people who either want to talk to me or I want to talk to her.

00;51;38;16 – 00;51;57;08
Dana Black
I’ve thought about her famous people I want to pitch and I just can’t get to all of them. And I think I feel bad and I go, Well, I’ll just wrap it up. I won’t do anymore. And it’s expensive and it’s a lot of time and it’s a lot of energy. And yeah, I have a therapist and I friends and I talk through this and as you know, my my second season is more joyful and I have more hope and love.

00;51;57;10 – 00;52;03;27
Dana Black
You get it? Absolutely. So it’s you know, it’s still an evolution. Yeah, it’s still dealing with some heavy stuff, but.

00;52;04;00 – 00;52;19;20
Ryan Buck
Well, I see. I know we have some time stuff, but I wanted I wanted to do something. I want to run something by you. Yeah, because you inspired me with the t shirt ideas that there’s things that maybe this is a little exercise, and I’m just to have a teeny bit of fun. Okay, Just maybe this is seeing if you remember some elements from your show.

00;52;19;27 – 00;52;33;01
Ryan Buck
So I came up with just a few t shirt ideas. Okay. Based on holes from the show. And I want to see maybe if you remember full disclosure, I forget the list of who is was whose share I’ll try to remember, but if maybe we can put my t shirt idea to the guest.

00;52;33;02 – 00;52;33;14
Dana Black
Okay.

00;52;33;16 – 00;52;41;13
Ryan Buck
Okay. So my first idea for a t shirt and I don’t have a graphic for it. Maybe it’s just lettering missionary of feminist proportions.

00;52;41;15 – 00;52;44;24
Dana Black
Oh, missionary.

00;52;44;25 – 00;52;46;06
Ryan Buck
Of feminist proportions.

00;52;46;06 – 00;52;48;05
Dana Black
Oh, Caitlin.

00;52;48;08 – 00;52;56;12
Ryan Buck
I think. Yes, yes, yes. All right, I have. This is just a photo. It’s a photo of a dog with Bob Barker’s face.

00;52;56;14 – 00;53;13;04
Dana Black
Oh, and her mom passed away. That was an episode I did with someone whose mom had dementia and she was living in a home. But she passed away last year. Yes. Oh, yes. But that was so much fun. Yeah. We got to go sing outside her mom’s, you know. You did? Yeah, We would sing at the windows because of COVID.

00;53;13;08 – 00;53;13;24
Dana Black
Oh.

00;53;13;26 – 00;53;19;12
Ryan Buck
I know. Yes. That’s wonderful episode as well. All right. Just got a few more. Yeah. Here’s one. The images.

00;53;19;13 – 00;53;20;14
Dana Black
I’m stealing all of these of.

00;53;20;14 – 00;53;24;26
Ryan Buck
A woman passed out on a grave near a whiskey bottle. And the caption is, Don’t do this again.

00;53;25;04 – 00;53;28;17
Dana Black
Oh, I think that’s Caitlin, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, That’s a great one.

00;53;28;20 – 00;53;35;23
Ryan Buck
My last one. I think it’s just Sheriff Billy Bold, and it’s just a photo of plane for us.

00;53;35;26 – 00;53;36;23

Yeah.

00;53;36;25 – 00;53;52;19
Ryan Buck
That sounds cool. Yeah. So those were my T-shirt ideas. And clearly, you, you know, you remember some of these great episodes, but what are the best ways to support, to donate? Yeah, connect to listen, because people should. So what are the best ways to connect with you?

00;53;52;19 – 00;54;10;28
Dana Black
To listen you can listen to I swear on my mother’s grave, on all major podcasting platforms like Apple, Stitcher, Google, Spotify, all the things you can find me. Write a review, tell your friends, do all the things. I have a newsletter so you can find me at Dana Black dot org. Thank you. Yeah, right. I was like, You have it somewhere in your letter.

00;54;11;04 – 00;54;13;22
Ryan Buck
I like it when you say it just to confirm. And then you know.

00;54;13;26 – 00;54;30;00
Dana Black
You can find my acting rail, you can find voice over stuff, but you can find the podcast there and you can also subscribe to the newsletter and learn about the retreat, which is this summer, June eight, through 11th in Antioch, Illinois. And we have started a scholarship for one person to attend at a discounted rate. So we’re taking donations so that somebody can come.

00;54;30;00 – 00;54;51;02
Dana Black
So if you’ve lost a father or you’ve lost a child or you love the podcast and you can’t com or you just love the work we’re doing and you understand grief, you can donate, you know, five, ten, 6000, whatever you want to, to help us make it a reality. And then if you have property in Traverse City and you like fund people, you should find me and maybe I’ll do a retreat up here.

00;54;51;06 – 00;55;06;28
Ryan Buck
So I think it would be would be amazing. We would be lucky to have it. Yeah. Well, Dana, thank you so much for your pursuits and to all of those who pursue along with you, talking about your mom’s talking about grief and loss in a positive way and allowing everyone to learn and gain something from it. It’s a really amazing show.

00;55;07;00 – 00;55;17;23
Ryan Buck
Thank you. Thank you for all the work that you do. And to our listeners, thank you all for listening and thank you for pursuing the positive.

00;55;17;26 – 00;55;51;11
Mark Wilson
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us again on the pursuit of podcast, The Pursuit of Dana Black. And I swear on my mother’s Grave. For more information and to learn about our friend Dana practice, her podcast, The Retreat, go to Dana Black dot org. And if you are interested in sharing your pursue or know of a cause that should be highlighted on this show, feel free to reach out to us at New Leonard dot com All things audio video podcast production related.